INF5 I am Marlene Mint-Bolkenstein, and I am actress, and singer and I paint a bit. I am 49 years old, and a bit too fat. And here comes my nephew.
INF4 I am Henry Bolkenstein, and I am 13 years old, and I still am at school. And I am at the moment losing some weight. And I plan my future profession to become a fruit machine salesman. And now go to my brother.
INF3 I am George Bolkenstein, and I am 17 years old, and I am a student.
INF5 And what are you going to be?
INF3 I am going to be an actor.
INF2 And I am Eveline Bolkenstein, their mother, I teach pottery, I work with alternative health care. I lead a very interesting life, and now I post you onto my husband, Klaas.
INF1 I am Klaas Bolkenstein, I am now the oldest Klaas Bolkenstein, I am the father of young George and Henry, and Eveline is my wife, and I am 47 years old, two years younger than Marlene, I am the youngest one in the family, in the Bolkenstein family this was, and I am a company director, I live in England, already 20 years, 22 years [FaOu].
INF2 No, 19, 19 years, we've been married 23 years, and I lived here for 4. 23, 19, coming up for 20.
INF1 I think we work out that later. And I have two companies in England [FaOu].
INF1 We did? 19 years I've been in England. And when Eveline speaks, she is right.
OK And we mentioned your indonesian background, so my first question would be, are you aware of that? Is that a fact, or a circumstance in your life that is actually influencing your life today?
INF1 Yes, it influenced my life a great deal, and already when I came to England, when I was 12, when I came to Holland, when I was 12 years old, I used to speak with a very broad indonesian accent, and some of my younger friends teased me and called me Lumumba [FaOu].
INF1 Yes, on the rolschaatsbaan, in [FaOu].
INF1 Yeah, rollerscating, that used to be my hobby then, and they little let you know that Lumumba had nothing to do with Indonesia, but was the black politician who was a great deal in the newspaper, I think he was Nigeria, in those days, or Uganda, or something like that. And always my indonesian accent and the way we used to speak, as children which included lots of cider, cidor [FaOu].
INF1 And noises, indonesian peoples speak with noise, and, as a child I was always teased about that. Pested ermee, h‚. And even now after all those years, I still have an indonesian accent, I do not have a dutch accent, and, having grown up in Indonesia, I think it gives you an outlook on life, that there is more than Holland or England, and one becomes more cosmopolitan, more broad-minded, and I think you live a richer life, and you are more tolerant, of what other people do or don't do, that's [UnPa]
INF4 You moved to Indonesia in 1952 [FaOu].
INF1 No, I was born there as a child [FaOu].
INF4 Yes I mean, you moved to Holland in 1952 [FaOu].
INF4 But you if you were born in 45 [FaOu].
INF5 Your father had to go first, because when he went first, this is Marlene speaking, when he went first, he could fly with KLM, half the price.
INF1 Yes because I was eleven when I flew, and I actually had my birthday in the aeroplane, and I had a cake with 12 candles on it, and was allowed to look in the cockpit, and I even remember the aeroplane, which was a Superconstellation, it was called, and you could recognize it because he had four big engines on the wing, and it had three fins, at the back. And it was a very famous plane, in those days, a bit like the Jumbo in our days. But this is a long time ago.
OK What do you know of your indonesian background?
INF4 We had no indonesian background.
INF3 We've always been told, by our parents, and from stories from Oma. That well.
INF2 Would you like to go to Indonesia?
INF3 Ja, I'd like to go there to see where my father grew up. I think it would be nice.
INF2 How do you feel about that, Henry?
INF4 Yes, that would be enjoyable. But, it is a long trip isn't that?
OK The expression Indische Nederlanders, is dat iets [FaOu].
INF1 It's unknown to them. Weten ze niet.
INF1 And, I do know, I know I am an indonesian dutchman, these are dutch people that are born in Indonesia, they are called Indonesische Nederlanders [FaOu].
INF5 They are called Indische Nederlanders.
INF1 Indische Nederlanders, ja.
INF1 And, from the whole family I am really the, I was the youngest, I was 12, and unlike Marlene, I'm not a cultural person, unlike Marlene, I no, I'm not [FaOu].
INF1 Yes, but I know little about the indonesian folklore, and I am not a good story-teller, like you are, and [FaOu].
INF4 We heard all the old stories from you anyway [FaOu].
INF1 And from Oma, Oma was [FaOu].
INF1 [FaOu] a good story-teller [FaOu].
INF5 [FaOu] because your father was a very naughty boy, did you hear all those stories?
INF4 Shall we talk about them now?
INF5 Sure, [UnPa] which one do you remember?
INF4 The one in the bathroom, this is Henry speaking, where Marlene and my father wanted to have a swimmingpool, so what they did under the door, they blocked up the bathroomdoor with towels, and then run the tubs, floated the bath, and the bathroom started to fill up, and then the water started to leak under the door, and go downstairs, and then Oma, [UnPa] open the door, a flood of water came through, and then she pulled them out and told them of, and then about two minutes later, they see how she walks upstairs and there they asked her swimming on the floor, in all the water, and that's what I remember.
INF5 And then we get, what's that [FaOu].
OK Is that the only thing you remember, that you were told about Indonesia?
INF3 Oh, no, they had a burglary in Indonesia, that's the other story I remember, where the burglar came in, very quietly, and took the sawing machine [FaOu].
INF4 No, no, no, my father and Marlene were asleep [FaOu].
INF4 And Oma came in into the bedroom, hush [FaOu].
INF2 With her finger over her mouth [FaOu].
INF4 With her finger over her mouth, because she heard, she heard that the burglar was out there, so the burglar was reaching through the window, to steal the sawing machine, you know what a sawing machine is?
INF4 Ja. So Oma went up to the window, and says, went very quietly and said, huh, to the man, [UnPa] and that man must have been jumped five meters in the air [FaOu].
INF3 He dropped the sawing machine.
INF4 Because he was so scared.
INF3 Never seen him again. It wasn't surprising.
INF2 And what about the life that they lived? At the weekends? Where did they go at the weekends? Did they go to the house in the mountains?
INF1 My stepfather had a, had a rubber factory, and they worked very long hours, very long hours, but early on saturday morning we all used to go on the car and wheels, to drive two and a half hours, it was two and a half hours, something like that [FaOu].
INF5 I think one and a half hour [FaOu].
INF1 One and a half hour, into the mountains, into a little village, which was high up in the mountains, and it was called Nongkojajar, and already from before the World War, the second World War, my father, my father's, or my, his first wife's parents, had a [FaOu].
INF1 Zandvoort, yes. They had a bungalow there. Which was burnt down in the war. But after the war they built it up again, together with my mother, and first it was a little octagonal, dat is achthoekig, h‚? And then it had a toilet, and that year later it had a bedroom, and gradually it was built out [FaOu].
INF1 And made bigger, and bigger. And my mother's hobby was gardening. Well, no my mother's hobby was having gardeners, letting the gardeners do gardening. And this, this is not colonial in Indonesia, anymore, it is [FaOu].
INF1 It is, people were paid a reasonable wage, and people actually enjoyed working for her, because she paid them well, and they enjoyed doing the work. And that took a lot of pride in the beautiful garden, that was built there. In the mountains, really, in the middle of nowhere.
INF4 The other story, that I remember, this is Henry speaking, was when they [UnPa] the garden one day, and Oma and Opa went out [UnPa] and the gardener was sitting under the tree, drinking tea, and then he thought, well, he should be working, that's what he is being paid for [FaOu].
INF3 Climbed up a tree and poured a glass of water over his head. Woke him up.
INF4 Did he so? Is that what happened?
INF4 He peed all over the gardener, this is what I heard [FaOu].
INF1 He was sleeping under the waringin-tree [FaOu].
INF4 So you peed all over him, and the gardener chased him all around [FaOu].
INF5 First time I hear it. Did you [FaOu].
INF1 And it was very sad, because that gardener later died, of, this was in [FaOu].
INF5 Surabaja. Embong Sawo [FaOu].
INF1 Embong Sawo, when we were children, I don't know, must have been 4 or 5 years old. This is before our mother married Papje Zandvoort.
INF1 We used to live in a house called Embong Sawo. I don't know what it means [FaOu].
INF5 No, that's the, Embong Sawo that's the street. I write that down for you later, number two. We lived there. In the house where Tante Henri‰tte Keyzer with her husband Arno Keyzer lived. There we could live in the back. On the side, with Mammie.
INF1 I know little about that house. The only thing I do know, that there was a tremendously large waringin-tree.
INF1 And the waringin-tree is family of [FaOu].
INF1 It's a ficus yes, and it has large aerial roots, and I remember that the trunk was enormous. It must have been something like, from here, like 3 meters [FaOu].
INF1 Big, hundreds of years old probably, and I do remember one afternoon, the gardener was lying there, asleep, under the tree, I thought he shouldn't be sleeping, and then [FaOu].
INF4 He should be working [FaOu].
INF1 And I had a little [UnPa] on him.
INF5 But Klaas was very, very, very naughty. I mean my mother really sometimes was [FaOu].
INF5 Despaired of him. Wanhopig. He had so much energy, he was always like this, not sitting still any minute.
INF4 And now you tell us to stop doing it!
INF5 And then in the afternoon we had tea, and he was ready, hello, hello, what shall I do, and then she had a pack of cards, you know that story about the pack of cards? And then Oma said, okay Klaas, full of energy, you make run run run around the house, and the garden, and then I get you a card. And then he run one, two, three, and then after twenty cards he became tired, but it did go on, card number 21, and so after the whole pack of cards was finished, and then Klaas was tired, and only then he got his tea, or cookies or something like that. So she handled him.
INF5 But we were, we were both very naughty, but he was very very naughty. But then you got smacked bottom, I think you did it once again, peeing on the people. Or it was, we had servants there, and there was a well, and all the servants went there to have a bath, and you went up there looking at the ladies, did you?
INF1 Yeah, I remember that now, on the garage roof.
INF5 Yes. But also you once peed from there, but not on people I think and then you got smacked bottom from Mammie also.
INF1 These are not very nice stories [FaOu].
INF5 No, they are not nice. I mean there was so much adventure there, in the afternoon, after the warm meal, in the afternoon, we had to go to sleep, so we never went to sleep, so if Oma and Opa were in the sleeping room, and we heard them so sound fast asleep, so then we both crept out of the sleeping room and made fun. And most of the times we all went to the, where the new houses were built, and that was very dangerous, because there was ongebluste kalk, what's that, weet je wat dat is?
INF1 Oh, yeah, I don't know how to call it now [FaOu].
INF5 That was dangerous, and then there was a man who was gardening there, what's the name,
INF5 Take care, no not gardener [FaOu].
INF5 Caretaker, and he had a very long whip, so he went behind the children, with his whip, so, and once we were all on the last floor, do you remember?
INF5 And then he came up, on the top floor, and so the only thing was to go down, so we could reach the stairs, Klaas you could not. And you came down from the bamboo thing, all your legs were open, and Mammie said, what happened, I don't know. But he was so [FaOu].
INF1 In those days there was no metal scaffolding to put building up so they make a structure [FaOu].
INF1 From bamboo, so all these long bamboo poles going up, like [UnPa] house, very sharp,
INF4 You cut your legs [FaOu].
INF5 It was. But we had a nannie, did you tell about a nannie? Juffie?
INF5 She was very nice, but Klaas was also, and he liked to tease her. And she had lots of animals, so if, and specially birds, so she had a canary and then she started to clean the cage of the canary, and all the little poopies were on the floor, and she wanted to make a joke to Klaas, and said, hello, you want to eat it? All the little poopies. And you know what he did? He gave a smack, and all the poopies were in her hair. So she went to Grandma, and Oma was angry again. And next time you had built from the meccano, een molen [FaOu].
INF1 Een draaimolen. A merry-go-round.
INF5 And we came up, and we heard noises, and he had put the parrots of the nannie on the merry-go-round. (Schreit). [UnPa] and so he panicked, and went very far, round and round. So every time, if there was noise, Oma came out of the sleeping room, and see that their little boy was not naughty.
INF4 How very [UnPa] comes out now.
INF5 And other times you, you he always climbed and then he was gone and somebody shouted that Oma well, that's Klaas is outside the house, and he was in the dakgout, what's that?
INF5 In the gutter. But on a very dangerous place, only this around to do. So she said [FaOu].
INF4 That's crazy that he didn't break a leg.
INF5 No, he once did, but that was my fault. He was there and Oma said [UnPa] Oh hello, there you are. Will you come down for have a glass of stroop, lemonade. Very careful and all the servants and very careful, very careful, because the roof was not like that, but like this, so, so it was very steep, and finally he was brought down, you will never do that again, and finally she could [FaOu].
INF2 Release her anxiety [FaOu].
INF5 Yes, and then he was sent because she was really desperate, and she had just married my second father, and Klaas was so stout [FaOu].
INF5 Naughty, that my grandmother, Oma Perenboom said, well I have the child for three months, and then you can honeymoon a bit more, together with my new father.
INF5 Pappie Zandvoort. Opa, you know actually, that was our second father [FaOu].
INF5 [FaOu] because our real father died. And then your father went to Bandung, for a few months, but that lasted longer.
INF1 No, I was two years in Bandung. And the first year was okay, because Oma was there, and I was well spoiled, and [FaOu].
INF2 How often did you see your mother, then?
INF1 Only in the schoolholidays. That was probably twice a year. summer-holiday and christmas-holiday.
INF5 Now, it was three or four times a year.
INF5 Yes. With easter, or in between.
INF1 I can't remember that anymore. Because I used, I don't think so, I think probably only twice a year. Christmas and summer-holiday.
INF1 Because I used to fly and on my own, with a Dakota, DC-3, from Bandung to Surabaja. As a child. That makes you very big and very proud, because, I think I was only 7 or 8 years old. I remember the seats in the aeroplane where you sit side by side, in little metal seats, with a belt on, and the windows behind you [FaOu].
INF1 [FaOu] and there were actually the banks, that were of course used in the war, and all the parachutists used to sit on these seats, like that, and then they used to run to the backdoor, and jump out, with parachutes. And yes twice a year I used to go, I think it was twice a year. We can't ask anybody now. It doesn't matter. And the first year was fun, the second year [FaOu].
INF1 No I never knew Tante, only got to know Tante Selma in Holland. And the second year was not so much fun, because Oma was gone, and Tante Erna and Oom Cees were very busy, Antje and Yvonne I think were already went back to Holland, and [FaOu].
INF5 Oh, that was a bad year for you.
INF1 Well, I think I was just lonely, I think I was just, I was homesick then.
INF2 So was that when ran away?
INF1 Yes I did run away [FaOu].
INF5 You run away from Bandung. Imagine that, I think it's very brave. Oh and my mother was feeling so guilty, afterwards, my little boy, from how must he have missed me [FaOu].
INF3 How long did you run away from?
INF1 Something like a day, two, I was lost for a while. I was gonna go back to Surabaja I think. And I remember that Tante Erna had a, what's that canna, canna?
INF5 Big garden, with cannas, yes.
INF1 We used to have a hiding place there. Behind.
INF1 And there used to be an open sewerage at the end of the garden [FaOu].
INF1 And although you think it smell it wouldn't smell, because there was fairly fast running water.
INF1 Dagelijks. But then after that I was back in Surabaja, with you and we must have been there [FaOu].
INF4 [UnPa] to Michel and Felix?
INF1 No, they were already in Holland, you see? And the only time I met my brother Michel, was in Tegal Sari.
INF5 No, it must have been later.
INF4 How how, what age difference is between you and Michel?
INF1 It was in Tegal Sari. I remember Tegal Sari. Tegal Sari was next to the school.
INF1 So as children the first house we mentioned, Oliver, was Embong Sawo, that's my first memory of Indonesia, really, Embong Sawo, and I remember the tree, and I probably was only one or two years old, then, I must have been very small.
INF1 Then the next house was Tegal Sari [FaOu].
INF1 [FaOu] that was next to the school, and that's the room where Marlene and I used to sleep, together well on the veranda, on the back was the sawing machine, which was stolen in the night, which was the story that Henry told you, and also remember that house had luaks, and luaks is like a [FaOu].
INF1 Is like a wild cat, yes. And they lived in the attic. And they make a horrible noise.
INF1 And you hear them at night. (macht Ger„usche nach)
INF1 You lie in bed at night, [UnPa] you know, [UnPa] [FaOu].
INF5 And then we started to sing one special song, to, like, like, magic, because, when we started that song, from the, wat is padvinderij?
INF5 It's a boy-scout's song, and when we started that song, they stopped, walking and stopped with their noise, probably because, they heard noise, then we started to sing, jalahi klinkt door de rimbu, bij het vallen van de nacht. Do you remember?
INF5 Very loud, because we was so scared.
INF1 So I must have been 4 or 5 years old, then. Because after Tegal Sari, [UnPa] and Mammie married.
INF5 Yes then she went to the Jalan Supratman.
INF1 She married while I was 7.
INF5 And did Daddy tell you about [FaOu].
INF1 So that must have been 1952.
INF5 [FaOu] the earthquake there?
INF1 That I remember in Tegal Sari. That we had an earthquake, this was the Krakatau.
INF1 And we were both, it was in the evening, when we were both in the house, we just finished our dinner, and we used to have a nannie, Pela, and she was [UnPa] enormous, she was a big girl.
INF1 She was just very big up. Don't know wether she was fat, or wether she was ill. I think she was obese. Obesity is an illness where people grow very fat. I remember when she used to walk, she used to walk like that [FaOu].
INF1 And she pulled the table outside, and I remember sitting at home, and you have a light hanging from the middle of the room with a lamp shade on it, and because you feeled the ground moves, and the house moves, and glass [FaOu].
INF1 [FaOu] stingles, and ringles, but suddenly you see the lamp doing that, by which I realized that the house is actually moving in a big way. And she was screaming for us, when she carried a table outside [FaOu].
INF5 Yes, but the nannie, juffie, took you out.
INF1 Oh, was it juffie? Not Pela?
INF5 Pela was standing outside and she couldn't have, she couldn't stand anymore. Because she was so fat, and the ground was doing this, and then I cried and cried, but Klaas was as small, he was brought [FaOu].
INF5 Outside. And then all the lamps came out. So it was completely dark. And I shout and I shout, but I came out on myself. I think.
INF1 Well, I do remember both of us sitting outside, under the table.
INF5 Yes, we were put there under the table, and I was praying very loudly, god help us, save us, because our parents weren't there. They were to a concert. But it was very scaring.
INF1 Yes, in the following day there were big cracks in the house, and the plaster had fallen of the wall, and you could actually feel the ground move, under you, up and down, up and down, I remember tables doing that and I remember the house almost moving, and it's [FaOu].
INF5 Every time the day after, did you hear so [UnPa], so, everybody had to go out, and in the class, in the school, the teacher asked all the pupils, look from time to time outside, if you see the wires of the telephone-poles, if you see them tremble, then everybody has to go out. So, the naughty boys between us, said, yes, and everybody [UnPa], outside, nothing.
INF1 The Kelud, I can't remember the Kelud, where was the Kelud?
INF5 On Java, the Krakatau was before our time.
INF5 Yes. That was before our time, this was the Kelud.
INF1 Because the Krakatau also was a life volcano.
INF5 Yes. There are many many life volcanoes.
INF1 Krakatau I think is still a life volcano. That's a different story. There is a KLM aeroplane, that ended up in the ashdust, a 747, different story. And, so that was the second house that I remember, Tegal Sari, and that's when, that's the first time I met my brother Michel.
INF5 He was I think 25 when he came back to Indonesia.
INF1 Ja, he went to work on Probolinggo then.
INF1 No, he was only there for a holiday. And then he went back to Holland, and then he came back I think to go to [FaOu].
INF4 That should be horrible. 38 between them [FaOu].
INF4 Was just thinking, if I would have just been born, if I was in your position, and that was Michel, and was just been born, 17 years between [FaOu].
INF5 I think I was an accident, I mean, my parents had Michel and Felix and then, and that was it. So think, I'm not sure I can ask Michel, that I, I was there accidentally, and that they made Klaas as a companion.
INF1 You were an accident, indeed, Tante Henri‰tte told me that, and it was Tante Henri‰tte, that you have to thank for to be in this world. Because Mommie didn't really want to be pregnant again, and Tante Henri‰tte said, well, what if it's a girl? And then Mommie thought, well [FaOu].
INF1 [FaOu] after I got two boys, already, maybe it's a girl. And then you came.
INF5 Yes. And because Oma loved to have a girl, because, my brother Felix, who died already, she kept his hair long, until his second year, and she had for few times little dresses for him, but she told him, only when he was big.
INF4 I remember that she when I was born always, expects it about 90 percent to be a girl.
INF4 [FaOu] big dolls, pretty dresses, but when I was born, I was a little boy. I was a little boy. And so everything went to my cousin.
INF5 What do you think about indonesian food, George? Young George.
INF3 Yes, it's too hot. I love chinese food, but indonesian food, I don't know, it is [FaOu].
INF4 I wouldn't say I don't like it. I'd say that there are a few things, no, not a few, half of it, I wouldn't mind eating, but I find it is very hot food. And [FaOu].
INF4 [FaOu] and, yes, spicy food. With pepper and that sort of things. But I love all the sat‚. With all the chicken, that's very nice. And the rice. I like white rice. But the yellow rice, [UnPa], and certain vegetables, that I'd eat, with indonesian food, but not all.
INF5 Where did you start eating these things?
INF4 We don't eat indonesian food as whole, I am [FaOu].
INF1 No, you can't buy [FaOu].
INF4 We eat chinese food, once a week.
INF1 We sometimes eat indian food, but it's a [FaOu].
INF4 Indian or chinese. We had a big disagreement on a indonesian, on indian food.
INF1 There is a malaysian restaurant in [FaOu].
INF2 But it is different [FaOu].
INF1 [FaOu] in London, but it doesn't taste the same as here [FaOu].
INF4 [UnPa] malaysian restaurant, it was okay, wasn't it?
INF1 Yeah. That wasn't the same.
INF1 Small portions and very expensive.
INF4 Yeah, it's more fresh here, when we come with you. Rather then it's been there for a while, because that's [UnPa] and freezer.
INF5 And have you ever been on a pasar malam, or something like that?
INF5 Such an oriental bazaar, so. The big one.
INF4 [UnPa] is it something like the turkish one?
INF5 The end of June and begin of July.
INF2 Maybe that's what we do then.
INF5 And then 10 days, it's all [FaOu].
INF4 What do they sell? Because at the turkish market they sell turkish food.
INF5 Yes, here they sell indonesian food, but also indonesian clothes, and stones, shells, books [FaOu].
INF4 That's like the turkish market. It's not all turkish, they sell tools and that sort of things.
INF5 And here there are many many performances, and for the people, from Indonesia, or people like us, who've been born there, it's like coming home, because, all the smells, are there [FaOu].
INF5 [FaOu] the tastes, and all the people. I mean can you notice that there is a difference, between normal dutch people and people Indische Nederlanders, who have been born there?
INF4 If we had heard, because [UnPa] indonesian accents, for a couple of weeks, then we'd notice. But not because we've never been to, it is because we've never been there, we don't know how it sounds like. If I would talk to someone I say, I couldn't say if they were indonesian or not. Or dutch. Because, we you don't know, because, we have had dutch accents every day, I think, father has a dutch accent, but, anyway, he thinks, he hasn't [UnPa] dutch accent, as he has been living there, for the last [UnPa].
INF1 Yes, but, I have a dutch accent.
INF1 I can speak like Pela [FaOu].
INF1 No, we can have, we can make an english accent, a dutch accent in english. we have all gone to the [UnPa]
INF5 To the [UnPa], hello boys [FaOu].
INF4 When Michel and Jane came over, they said, oh the [UnPa] is so beautiful [FaOu].
INF5 And then a take a big knife [FaOu].
INF2 A thumb in my pocket [FaOu].
INF5 Those Indische Nederlanders, who went to America, they have special dialect, because they mix dutch, indonesian and english, so american. And they talk, well, I took a plane there at two o'clock, and [UnPa] that's very funny, they have all the music of the indonesian language in the american, [UnPa].
OK Obviously Marlene has a very close relationship to her indonesian background, I mean, by her work, being an actress, doing an TV-Show, you know that?
INF4 Well, I mean, I agree with you there, but then my father has been living in England, for 20 years, so he hasn't been as close to Indonesia, as food, rice and talking to indonesian people, as Marlene had the chance. That's probably the reason.
INF3 Ja, cause you've been back to Indonesia, several times?
INF5 Many, many times. First time I went with Ivo. Here is Ivo coming in. He likes to be scratched, or massaged, and this is very indonesian habit, Oma, when we were small, she always started to do picit it is called, it is not a real massage, like, but in Indonesia all your affection goes immediately with body contact. And if old, specially old people, Indische Nederlanders, talk with you, you can't say hello, Tante this or Tante, aunt this or aunt that, and then they put there hand out, and you have to put your hand in, and they hold it, while you talk. That's so [FaOu].
INF4 Jaqueline, does that with me.
INF4 I had a conversation with Jaqueline, Jaqueline does that.
INF5 Yes. Now Ivo you tell, Ivo is my stepson, Ivo Mint, I am married to Gerard Mint, and I went with Ivo, the first time in 78. Now, and what do you think of Indonesia, when you saw it for the first time?
INF6 It's a nice country to be. Better than the Netherlands. Better temperature, and there are more things to do, than here in the Netherlands. Ja, people are nicer, you're always welcome everywhere, that's it. I think.
INF5 I thought it very special, that, at the moment he was there he started to be one of those those, it was like he was born there, I mean he started to tawar, that's afdingen, what is it in english?
INF5 Bargaining, that's very common there [FaOu].
INF4 We did that in the turkish market, you bargained for things.
INF5 Yes, and Ivo immediately felt at home. He was born there, net een kacung, that's a boy from the street.
INF4 The turkish market, we heard [UnPa] was actually in Holland.
INF4 It was in Haarlem, [UnPa]
INF5 But you felt immediately at home. Didn't you?
INF5 I thought that amazing. But for children it's a very nice country. Ivo, asked, can I stay out of the hotel, and stay with your friend, she had a son, she has a son, and he immediately started to play with guns, I mean, all things which you do here, is, not do here, is there possible. And then they started to shoot, and then my friend Mary said, [UnPa] kantoor, that's don't shoot there, there's an office, so, shoot the other way, and it was all so easy, and he had lot of fun.
INF6 Rats, and on coconuts. Not coconuts, but mango, I believe. It was a mangotree up there?
INF5 And that was the house, Klaas Bolkenstein, where you, in the jalan Tegal Sari, and my girlfriend Mary, was still living there.
INF5 Jalan Tegal Sari, on the other side, and there, Ivo stayed there.
INF6 And we shot at a tokeh. And we shouldn't do.
INF5 Oh, poor animal. And then, when we left there, he was 12, Ivo said to me, I want to marry an indonesian girl, and [FaOu].
INF6 She has to scratch my back every five minutes.
INF4 If that is the only reason [FaOu].
INF5 It doesn't matter, if she is not beautiful, if she can cook, and if she is sweet, and if she can scratch my back.
INF6 But now she can be beautiful, so.
INF6 Daar kan nou ook een mooie bijzitten.
INF5 Oh, yes. Did Oma tell you stories?
INF4 No, daddy told us everything.
INF1 No, Oma told you stories, but [FaOu].
INF4 But they were difficult to understand, because she spoke in the dutch, you couldn't get everything [FaOu].
INF6 You couldn't get the whole message [FaOu].
INF4 [UnPa] get the whole story, you got the outline. I can't remember, only the one with the gardener, the one with the burglar, and then the first one [FaOu].
INF4 The one with the bathroom, the only two stories I can remember, easily.
INF6 And in Indonesia, I also liked the trains from Uncle Michel [FaOu].
INF5 We were on the train [FaOu].
INF5 The sugartrain. We went to the factory the sugar-factory, where Michel, our eldest brother lived, and Ivo was allowed to ride on the sugarcane-train.
INF4 And you can suck sugarcane. Can't you?
INF1 Sickly sweet after a while.
INF4 I'd love to try some. Can you actually buy it?
INF6 Yes, you can. That's my brother.
INF5 He does know daddy is still asleep, I make him wake up.
INF5 But at the Jalan Tegal Sari we had a beautiful tree, in front of the house, you remember? A cherry tree. Cherry. Cherry boom. It's not kers, but, japanese [FaOu].
INF1 Yeah, I remember. We had Piet, was the mail servant.
INF1 He made a tree-house in it.
INF1 And he put a light bulb in it, with a switch. And to turn the light off, it actually shortened the wire, and the whole house was dark.
INF1 He didn't wire it up properly.
INF4 You had a tree-house? Where Marlene and you played?
INF1 Well, it was very high up, we didn't stay there, only once, it was too dangerous, it was too high.
INF5 You know who had a tree-house, in the waringin, in Embong Sawo, there was a tree-house built, for Uncle Felix, and Tante Saskia, the mother of Emiel. It was a beautiful tree-house, and they could go with a ladder, a rope-ladder go up, and made their homework there, but we were too small, we only could look, we were not allowed to go in. Oh, I died to have a look there.
INF4 Did you finally have a look in there?
OK But after all these funny and nice stories, you could ask, why did you leave? Why did you leave Indonesia?
INF1 I left in 1957, I actually left on the forth of April 1957, because [FaOu].
INF4 It was your birthday. Fifth.
INF1 It was my birthday in the plane, and it was a two day journey, and you stop over in, I think you stop over in Bombay. Maybe it was even three days. Because it was my birthday in the plane I remember that now, because I had to leave early, because it was cheaper when you were 11. 12 years old you had pay full price. So actually I went on my own. To Holland. And stayed with Tante Henri‰tte [UnPa].
INF4 Was Tante Henri‰tte a very broad person?
INF1 No, she was lovely, Tante Henri‰tte.
INF1 Broad. Yes she was big up.
INF2 How did it feel when you've been used living in that warm climate all the time?
INF1 Well, I came there in the spring, you know, I remember the bugs, I remember the katjes on the trees. How do you call katjes, the little grey [FaOu].
INF1 And I remember them, and I remember everybody telling that I'm so brown, being not a very brown person, I remember them, I also remember that, because it was my birthday, I got lots of presents, from all the family, and most of them used to give me money, I had a pocket full of silver guilders, and rijksdalers which are 2 and a half guilders [FaOu].
INF4 That's a lot of money, isn't it?
INF4 What did you do with that money?
INF1 I bought a model-aircraft, in the Weimarstraat, there used to be a model-aircraft shop [FaOu].
INF3 So the question is why did you leave?
INF2 Yes, why, did you leave Indonesia?
INF1 Oh, we left on a holiday. It was the first time, in years, that my parents were going back to Holland, on a holiday, and were gonna come back. For the holiday, and we actually did a few things that year, with my parents, but then in Indonesia, the revolution broke out [FaOu].
INF1 While we were here, so we never came back. And my father, Pappie Zandvoort, he went back, and to try to sold out the business there, and try to sell which what he could, and it mostly was to late, so he came back here again.
INF4 And did they have any money, when they came here?
INF1 No, hardly any, they lost pretty everything.
INF4 And all the paintings, and sort things [FaOu].
INF5 Een stopcontact, want deze, hier staat geen stroom op. Want Gerard heeft hem op de tijdsclock staan. Maar, heeftie toch all niet opgenomen. Hij staat toch aan het begin, maar ja, laat toch gaan. En nou Eveline [FaOu].
INF6 By the way, the revolution was called so, called interim-period, and they were two periods, that they were two politional actions of the dutch, and in these periods, I think your father went, or my grandfather went to Indonesia, to sold out the things, Uncle Klaas said.
INF1 Yes there was a revolution in 1957 which is where all the dutch people were thrown out, all the english, all the american were thrown out by the Indonesians, and this was under the government of president Sukarno, who was very much a communist, and was supplied by the Russians, and the russian tanks, and the russian war-planes, and Migs, and and that lasted, I don't know, four, five years, maybe a bit longer, and the country became poorer, and poorer, and poorer like these countries do, and in the end, when he was, he was disposed, h‚?
INF1 Ja, he was disposed, afgezet.
INF5 But all the political details I don't know exactly.
INF1 Yeah. Then we became president Suharto [FaOu].
INF5 And he still is there [FaOu].
INF1 And he still is there. And he is very right winged, very pro-american, and there was a big [UnPa], then, where everybody shot everybody else, by saying that they were communists, because now the communists were out, and there were personal vendettas, people got shot, and killed, all under the pretence that they were communists. But he is still there and it is a very much a western country again.
INF5 But Eveline, when you married Klaas, did you notice that there was difference? I mean, that he was not from a common dutch family? Or not?
INF2 I didn't really had the experience with other dutch families to make that comparison, plus I was just 19, when I met Klaas, so still very impressional [UnPa] with different things really.
INF4 How old were you when you actually married?
INF2 Twenty. I was twenty, eight days into my twentieth year.
INF4 And how did your, how did your mother and father take to having you married?
INF3 Were you the last to marry?
INF2 I was the last to marry, and yes, they were very sad. Because that then meant to my family, there were two daughters in Holland, one daughter in South-Africa, and my brother was in Ireland. So in two years, from having four children, home, suddenly, they were all gone.
INF2 But they have very good holidays.
INF6 And what is wrong with the english men? Anyhow?
INF1 I said to your mother, my darling we both love me, I think we got to get married.
INF2 And that's exactly what he said. Let's get married, so cold, I suggest maybe go home now please.
INF5 The first one of the family you you met was Tante Henri‰tte Keyzer.
INF2 Yes. Tante Henri‰tte Keyzer, she came and stayed with my family in England, for she wanted to improve her english, and [FaOu].
INF4 How did your grandmother take to meeting this lady?
INF2 Oh, my grandmother, my mother?
INF2 She loved Tante Henri‰tte, cause Tante Henri‰tte was such a warm generous person, and Tante Henri‰tte was a very cultural person, and she used to invite my mother, to go along at all the different trips that she made in England. And all the things my mother used to do, as a young girl had sort of [WoUn] (late) girl, in her late years, she recaptured all that again with Tante Henri‰tte, and they used to go off together like a pair of schoolgirls. It was really fun. And at the weekend, Daddy was coming to collect Tante Henri‰tte, I had never met Daddy before, and Tante Henri‰tte was a very forthful personality, and, I wouldn't say she threatened me, but it was very similar. That I should remain home that weekend and meet her nephew. That was how I met Daddy, in 1988, sorry, 1968, the latter part of 68, and then Daddy and I were married in 69. In 1969.
INF5 And when Tante Henri‰tte went to Indonesia, she always bought one trunk of presents for all her nephews and nieces.
INF2 Oh, she was the most wonderful person.
INF4 It was actually Henri‰tte?
INF5 We said Henri‰tte. [UnPa] for Ivo, she bought in Indonesia a batik-shirt for Kurt for Gerard for me, all a trunk full presents. But, beside it, she loved to knit. And she knitted things for us. And pullovers for the children which were very narrow here under the arms, for your mother dresses, which were really to wide, so once we both dressed up in her dresses and she said, oh, aren't you both really lovely. In the blue sacks, you know?
INF2 That's right. And I was nine months pregnant, and it still didn't fit me.
INF2 That was the blue one, [UnPa].
INF5 But she was a special and also a great woman. She together with my mother [FaOu].
INF2 Suffered a lot of hardship, and yes, they were never ever bitter, in all the years that I knew them, and that's 23 years now, well, not Tante Henri‰tte, because she died in, 80, when did Tante Henri‰tte die?
INF2 In 87. And, however, they never ever spoke in a derogatory way about their past.
INF2 Yeah. They both lost a lot, and yet they always had a very positive attitude, outlook on life, very refreshing.
INF4 One thing I remember [UnPa] she was tagged in her own house and locked in her cupboard.
INF5 Oh, that's such a sad story.
INF5 We went to the pasar malam, that's the oriental market, in front of where Oma lived, Houtrusthalle, and when I had to perform there, Oma and Tante Erna nearly every time went there and one evening Tante Henri‰tte stayed at home and Tante Erna and my mother went to my performance, and when they came home, burglars, had, well had pushed the bell, and went in and took a big knife, such knife on her throat, Tante Henri‰tte, and said, give us all your money and all your jewels, and she said, my good boy, I, she stayed very very calm, you can have this bracelet, and then he said, now that's to dangerous and easy to recognize, and she said, well, there is all the silver in the cupboard, and something else they took, and then they locked her in the cupboard [FaOu].
INF5 [FaOu] in de kast, and when my other aunt came home, she heard, her crying and [FaOu].
INF5 [FaOu] knocking, and then they called the police, but and then I asked, weren't you scared? She said, also not with the knife, she said, well no, after what the japanese did to us, no, I stayed very calm, and the police said well, that was your saving, your redding.
INF5 Yes, because if you had panicked, they would have killed you, because that were drug addicts, and they needed things to buy stuff. So she was very very very brave. Good Morning! But Tante Henri‰tte was fond of everybody.
INF4 Did she have any other attacks like that? Did they ever catch the criminals?
INF5 No. But Oma is also not afraid of something, always forgets to lock the backdoor. So last night, it is only a few months ago, Jaqueline saw something, and she phoned the police, she said, well, I think the backdoor is open, I don't dare to come down, and I saw something, but was she saw was already the police, with flashlights, because they saw the backdoor is open. So they went in, to the backdoor of the garden, they went in, because she also had not locked the kitchendoor, and went to the bed, and Oma wasn't there, she saw two policemen, she said, oh, oh, nothing wrong, it is only the police, and [UnPa] I have forget my [UnPa], so. She wasn't scared at all. And she said, well, thank you. I would have been scared to death.
INF4 They've been, they look [UnPa].
INF5 And our grandmother had once built a little a little hut in in the garden for Klaas and I, in Nongkojajar or Sukapura, and we asked, Oma, can we play in the hut and stay there all night, ok, she said, not your own hut I'll make you a hut. From zinc, and a roof on it. And there we didn't dare to stay through the night. There in Nongkojajar we stayed in a hut, also a little hut, to play, during the night. And we were scared to death. Because you sleep in that hut, and then you hear, the wilde varkens, the celengs, the [FaOu].
INF5 Swine. You hear animals around then, and you were so scared, and we did not dare to go round home those three meters to our parents. So we stay there all night, don't you remember?
INF1 I don't remember that now.
INF5 And I never slept there again, only play there during daytimes. But for children it is a wonderful country, because when you saw a movie, you could immediately replay it. Replay it, play Tarzan, play a knight, Vailliant, Prince Vailliant and so.
INF4 So, I think, if you are planning to go, you should really go soon. Before we're grown up. Better to go there young.
INF6 Yes, better to go there young.
INF5 You were twelve years, and you enjoyed it very much. It is a nice country. I mean, if you are not scared to death, for animals, there are not, not in the house I mean, [UnPa]
INF5 But how did it influence your life? Ivo?
INF6 Ja, I, since the first time I always wanted to go back, to the country, or whatever country if it gots a warm climate, better than the Netherlands, with warm and kind people, I never liked it here in the Netherlands, so. I would go back one day, and stay there. Probably. If my woman allows it.
INF5 And you do an indonesian sport, pencak silat, for years.
INF5 Pencak silat, it's a dance, part of it is dancing, the other part is fighting. With much philosophy, much physical training. And Ivo has a degree, for, mag je ook les geven?
INF5 For teaching, the first degree for teaching. But now you aren't doing it anymore?
INF5 But the moment we were there in 78, Ivo really turned up to be one of them, I mean, he said, well I can get for breakfast nasi goreng, fried rice, I will have the fried rice, I thought, I must think about it in the morning, every morning he took fried rice. And till now he left that, fried rice in the morning. And all the food.
INF6 I eat warm at morning, warm at nights, breakfast, dinner, everything. I never eat cold bread. This is was my first piece of bread for months. So. I was eat warmed up food, I love the microwave, it's quite easy.
INF4 And you bought one, didn't you?
INF5 [UnPa] down, this and so, George, young George. From Indonesia.
INF6 Then you should be here, in June again.
INF5 Ja, go to the pasar malam, then you see the dances. All kind of performances, and you see craftsmen, doing the silver or the batik, or, all that kind of things.
INF2 [UnPa] do that. Come in June.
INF5 It's the last week of June.
INF4 I'm in Germany on the last week of June.
INF5 Then you go and visit the pasar malam next year. Because going to Germany is also [FaOu].
OK So, if someone would ask you, what that means, indonesian dutch, how would you explain that?
INF5 Indische Nederlander bedoel je?
INF5 Als iemand vraagt, ja, wat een Indische Nederlander is.
INF6 Indische Nederlander is someone, with white dutch parents, born in Indonesia. And you've got also people with mixed blood, so then is called different here. In the Netherlands. Because you've got, ja [FaOu]..
INF5 Nee, die heten ook Indische Nederlanders.
INF6 Ja. Je hebt er toch weer verschil in?
OK Zeg maar gewoon in het nederlands.
INF5 Dat zijn allemaal Indische Nederlanders.
INF6 Je hebt indische en je hebt Indos.
INF5 Nee, dat is eigenlijk hetzelfde. Maar Indos, als scheldwoord gebruikt je het voor mensen die bruin zijn. Maar eigenlijk ben ik ook een Indo. Maar wat de Hollanders niet weten, what the dutch people don't know, is the difference between indonesian and Indische Nederlanders. And then they say to me you are indonesian, no, I'm not indonesian, I'm not, one from Indonesia, but I'm dutch. Als je, if, if a dutch man marries an english girl, well, you have also dutch children, but you won't see anything, if a Dutch an marries an indonesian girl, you can have light brown children, they are all dutch, but the colour is different. But the begrip is so moeilijk, I mean ask ten people in the street, I think nobody knows exactly. It's really true, it's a problem for the Indische Nederlanders.
OK Maar is er niet nog een beetje nostalgie om het vandaag. Om vandaag te zeggen ik ben Indische Nederlanders.
INF6 Because the kids, also from those people, they're always claiming that they are indisch.
INF5 Yes, no, but 20 years ago they were ashamed of it.
INF6 No, it's. Ja, you have got, now a lot of those people have got a superiority-feeling, so, they are going to be proud of their backgrounds. And about 20 years ago, those kids got beaten up, because they were not really welcome or what ever. Daar is toch ook een film van gemaakt, door [FaOu].
INF6 Met [WoUn] (Belasula), het meisje [FaOu].
INF5 Yvonne [WoUn] (Belasula)?
INF5 Ja. Die film heet My Blue Heaven. Een leuke film. It's about when the dutch people came back here, in 58, and they weren't accepted here by the dutch people. And well, the difficulties of van de film.
INF2 It that why the top floor in the Pondok was called blue heaven?
INF5 No. And the movie was only, ja I don't know why it was called my blue heaven.
INF6 I think it is called blue heaven, because the actor from, ja, je zegt toch, about the people with mixed blood, they say it's a blauwe [FaOu].
INF6 In the army, I had it also with some sergeant, and then they called him, the blue one. So, it is probably, the blue for the colour, and the heaven is probably, because Yvonne is a very pretty girl, and the guy falls in love with the girl, so.
INF6 Might be a beautiful girl from Indonesia, and so, ja, his mind is mixed up with them.
INF5 It's a good film. It's history for home, the film.
INF6 And my father, he always claimed, that when there were some fights here, dutch were used to use only their hands, hit someone, and they always, he said that the indonesian guys didn't fought fair, fight, because they used their feet also.
INF5 The dark boys here. The girls, the dutch girls in 57, loved the dark boys, and then the white boys [FaOu].
INF6 [FaOu] were jealous about that, started to fight, and then they [FaOu].
INF5 [UnPa] there were gangs [FaOu].
INF6 [FaOu] lost, because they were only used to use there hands, so then they got kicked in their balls, so then the fight was over.
INF5 Wil je nog iets aan George and Henry vragen, Oliver?
INF4 Is there anymore questions, you would like to ask us?
OK Do you want to say anything?
INF3 Our knowledge of Indonesia is pretty limited.
OK But I like to thank you for cooperation [FaOu].
OK [FaOu] and thanks, and we'll see what other material we got tomorrow.
INF1 Yes we are really the ones that have, they have no experience of Indonesia. I'm the youngest one, was the first to leave, and [FaOu].
INF4 But someone like Michel and Felix they wouldn't know them [FaOu].
INF1 Oh, they would tell you great stories [FaOu].
INF4 But they wouldn't know these stories.
INF1 My brother Michel, in Groningen, he can talk for hours [FaOu].
INF5 He can talk for hours, but he doesn't know the stories, your father and I know, because we were [FaOu].
INF6 Because Michel left Indonesia when he was already an adult.
INF5 And then he came back and I stayed with him for months during the holidays, but without you, so that's also different, but he once said to me, that our mother was very much more kinded to us but to him. To Michel and Felix. Michel zei altijd, that Mommy and Papa dus, Bolkenstein, were very severe, heet dat zo?
INF4 That's because they were the first born and the first always gets [FaOu].
INF6 Oma was supposed to be very young, so she should play in discos or whatever there was to be in that period.
INF5 Oma did talk a lot to you, did she, didn't she? About Indonesia?
INF5 No, I think we did so, Michel doesn't know anything about it.
INF1 I missed, I was upstairs, I missed the beginning of the objectives, the aims and objectives of your research at the moment. Is this the influence that Indonesia had on us?
OK Yes, it's, I'm busy with biography of individuals, biographic research, or oral history is an english expression, I'd like to see wether there is a connection between the history of an individual and of his family. Wether there are influences between some collective story and an individual's story.
INF1 The greatest influence, that is not been talked about, which is there, is that, if you grew up in Indonesia, from parents like we have, they were very independent people. And they were leaders, and they had their own companies, they run their own businesses, and that left its mark on all of us. Because Marlene has an business for herself, I'm in business for myself, my brother Felix who is now died, actually died just when he was setting up an business for himself, and the only one that has not been a business for himself, is my brother Michel.
INF5 Yes but the trains, and his hobbies, he made a big business for himself.
INF1 His, yes, his work became [FaOu].
INF1 It was difficult to set up a business for himself, because his work was actually, his love was actually with steam and engines and traction, and so ended up on a sugar factory, in Indonesia, and with that know-how you cannot really set up a business for yourself. Once you're in the sugar business you have to stay in the sugar business. So he came to Holland, then worked for an engineering company for a while, but didn't like it, and then he switched jobs to Groningen where he worked for the dutch sugar company, and the dutch sugar cooperation, and that's what he always done. But his own business on the side is all to do with steam and traction and he has written a book and it is now rewritten and republished and he is now retired, he runs a fun park. But what's on the essence, I think for you, is that people, that grew up in Indonesia from parents like us, when, we became very independent people, and again, we run our own business, Marlene runs her own company, she is an actress, I have two companies in England, I have a computer software company, and we make kites, and it was really my brother Felix who started the kites, and then he died, so we took it to England, and then we run it from there. That's the influence, that has come with us, we are not, my parents, when they came to Holland, when they lost everything in Indonesia, started an immobilien-bureau, makelaarskantoor, and although he was, we knew nothing about houses, he had an uncle here, the husband of Tante Henri‰tte, he was an estate agent, a makelaar, and so he said, well, you should go and do this. Which is what they did. So that is the influence that we've had.
OK I see the influence, but what's the connection with Indonesia?
OK That there was no infrastructure, say no buraucracy or something like that and that made people more independent?
INF1 Yes, definitely. Their generation, or maybe even there's today, but in those days, particularly, like any country where people emigrated to, people emigrate somewhere because of the opportunities, that are there, and the people that emigrate have something independent anyway. And, they went there because the husbands went there or, the sister went there or, we had a greatgrandfather there, h‚?
INF5 Yes, we had our whole family there.
INF1 We have, we have a family tree which Marlene can give you [FaOu].
INF5 I gave it already, didn't I?
INF5 Ik heb het stamboom toch aan jou gegeven?
INF5 Nee dat artikel, dat is een stamboom.
OK I made a drawing from that.
INF5 Oliver made dus the tree.
INF1 But wether that is Indonesia, I think Indonesia is irrelevant then. It's I think the same of by the people that went to Australia, or people that went to America maybe in the late 17 hundreds [FaOu].
INF1 [FaOu] 18 hundreds, ja it's a pioneering type of person.
INF5 Yes I mean, the weak ones, they went back, or they died, or they haven't something. And when all those people from Indonesia, all those dutch people came back here in 57, all those people had to start anew, and they did, and they didn't complain, flinke mensen allemaal.
OK Yes, but the differences is, each modern country has some immigration, I think [FaOu].
OK And Germany for example, much people from Poland, or from the Soviet Union, but I think they are not distinctive as a group, nowadays, and my impression here is that, indonesian dutchs are still a distinctive group.
INF1 It has to do with proportion, because Holland is a very small country, which was very [WoUn] (blinked) and very not many opportunities here, if you wanted to do something, particulary people that had little education used to go abroad, because she could not get started in Holland, so the place to go was to Indonesia, and Indonesia, Holland only had Indonesia, there was a bit in the West-Indies, and Aruba, Bonaire, Cura‡ao, but [FaOu].
INF5 But that's not like Indonesia, I mean, and it's also, if you compare it to, between England and India, the tie between Holland and Indonesia is totally different then between England and India [FaOu].
INF5 Because the dutch mixed up with Indonesians. Very closed. They married and got children. Come in.
INF7 No, I have to eat first. But, [UnPa]
INF6 There is also another difference between indonesian people and surinam people, that's they prefer, indonesian people, and they looked down on surinam people.
INF1 I think it has to do with compatibility between the indonesian people and the dutch people and the way the two races interreacted. There is a large proportion of light brown people that's [UnPa] a lot of indonesian women married dutch men, and dutch girls married indonesian men a less, so, and many indonesian women are very beautiful and have very classic nice and facial features, unlike the negro, who, I know few dutch man that would have married a negro girl, so I think that has some that has something to do with it. It's well observed, now you point it out, it's there, if you look at England, and India you don't have people in England talking about the golden days in India don't talk about it, it used to be a part of the empire, and the Indians used to be there and the English used to be here, but I think the English used to treat the people in India with far greater arrogance, I guess.
INF6 Because those people were more black than the indonesian people.
INF5 No, they are brown, they are not black. Indian people are very much brown, rather than black.
INF6 Ja, but they are twice as dark or three times as dark as the indonesian people. Because indonesian people, they don't walk very much in the sun, they are quite white.
INF4 But what, you talked about the Indonesians [FaOu].
INF1 Well, you have a point, the dutch are unique, I would have thought in the world, they way Holland and Indonesia the bond that is there now, after all these years I mean 1957 everybody was thrown out, that's, where are we now? That's [FaOu].
INF1 34 years. 35 years ago, that's now. And they still talk about tempo dulu and the old days and the old times. And yesterday on the funeral of my mother, you could see all the people there talking petjoh, talking, places I know you from there [FaOu].
INF6 But there still are a lot of ties to Indonesia, because a white man married an indonesian girl, and the indonesian girl went to live with white dutch men here in the Netherlands, so but her brown family stays there, so is still family a connection. So it was still go up and down and write letters. So and a lot of the old indonesian people is still, know the dutch language in Indonesia. The younger they don't and they don't like dutch people, but the very old people they like dutch and the very young people they like dutch, but what is in the middle which is a, the people which lived through the interim period when they were about five to 25 years they hate dutch people, and the people afterwards, they like dutch and the people before they like dutch people. Also. Ja, there are so many ties, because we've got families there, we've families here, and a lot of the dutch people from Indonesia went to Australia but another part of the family went to the Netherlands, or left to Malaysia, so there is still a lot of ties close to Indonesia. Because we've got an uncle, [UnPa], in Australia [FaOu].
INF1 That is Pappie Zandvoort's son.
INF6 Ja, and he was used to live in Indonesia also, and when they got kicked out was able to got a good job I believe in Australia?
INF1 It's also, I think, this already started in 1700, that dutch people used to go to Indonesia, and lived there and grew up there, and still married dutch girls, so although dutch, there were all generations, that grew up there, and then when people grew up there and you didn't get thrown out, because they had a dutch passport, they had to come back here, many indonesian people, just spoke indonesian, but had a dutch passport, came back to here, came back to England, and [FaOu].
INF1 [FaOu] Holland, and my mother then worked for the social services, for a while, and, they call it the repatrianten-probleem, the problem of the repatriants, and because she spoke fluent, malaysian and indonesian in six different dialects, she used to go around these people, and talk to them and solve their problems. And helped them to integrate in the dutch infrastructure. And, you can try to compare it with the german influence in South-Africa for example, as a large number of, very many, because England, England lived in South-Africa, but so, there is a very large german contingent in South-Africa, with the problems there, they come to England. Because they have an english passport, and we know many german friends, we have many german friends in England, which were actually born and grew up in South-Africa. So that's [UnPa] small of scale, and the same thing happens there, and they talk about South-Africa and when they talk about South-Africa, and talk about [UnPa] then they talk to me, because although you're half a world apart, you grew up in a tropical country. And there is actually similarity there between the Germans and what is Monika come from, Namibia [FaOu].
INF2 Windhoek, Southwest-Africa.
INF1 Namibia, which is a very large german influence there, her parents speak german, she speaks german [FaOu].
INF2 For her parents are german.
INF2 Her parents are german. She was born there. In South-Africa.
INF1 But that also goes back to the 17 hundreds, I guess it's to do with time.
OK With time or with a different vision towards culture?
INF1 Yes, I must say they never integrated with the black african people, there is no compatibility there I think. Daag Kurt!
INF7 Daag familie, hi, hello, so we are [FaOu].
OK Ja. I think we saw each other.
INF7 For you made your first story about my mother. [UnPa]
INF1 What other questions would you have? Andere vragen, die je nog hebt. Is moeilijk, h‚?
OK Ja, I am, it was important to me to make a, some kind of discussion, without a certain fixed questions.
INF1 Did you hear what you wanted to hear?
OK I had no expectations. I mean I, I just wanted to know your opinion.
INF1 Well, we all liked to go back to Indonesia, but not as much as we liked to do some other things. To give you a good example is, I came to, we both came to England 20 years ago, and really for us England is home now. And, I now lived in England longer than here. So [FaOu].
INF1 Yes. So this year we thought, we go with Marlene to Indonesia with Henry and George, in previous years we always had a boat, and the last year the company was nearly bankrupt so we sold the boat. We had a lot of fun in our boat, big motor-cruiser. We sailed to France and to Paris, and San Marlon, to the Channel-Islands, and next year 1993, we were going to go to Indonesia, but then if you work out how much it costs to go to Indonesia with four of you, for four weeks and make a big trip like that, we decided that we rather buy a new boat. Rather than go to Indonesia. And because at this age he is 13, he is 17, he'll be 18 in January, and I think we got more fun out of still doing things, we are still a small family, h‚. And go to Indonesia maybe in a year or two years time, when Henry is a bit older, although there is a desire to go back to Indonesia, for me it is not as big a pulling power as for example for Marlene [FaOu].